David B. Wilkins, faculty director of the Center on the Legal Profession, sat down with Mary Smith, president of the American Bar Association (2023–2024), to talk about the state of the profession.
David B. Wilkins: It’s such an honor to speak with you—I know how critical the role of the American Bar Association (ABA) president is. This latest issue of The Practice celebrates the publication of The Making of Lawyers’ Careers, which dives into a 20-year longitudinal study, After the JD, which was in part funded by the American Bar Foundation. The study follows lawyers who entered the bar in the year 2000 through the first years of their careers. As this is a book about careers, I want to talk about yours, as you’ve worked in so many settings from government to private practice to nonlegal roles. Could you reflect on your own career trajectory and how the various stops along the way might have influenced or be influencing your current role as ABA president?
Mary Smith: Thanks for having me. As you noted, I have had a varied career. In college, I majored in mathematics and computer science. Then, I worked as a systems programmer, and I realized that the part of my job that I enjoyed the most was helping people. However, I was only helping people in a very narrow way with their computer issues, and I wanted to help people in broader ways. That is why I went to law school, and that was a defining moment, because I could have easily stayed with information technology my entire career. Early on, I wanted to be a trial attorney. At a midsize law firm in Chicago, I realized that there are very few opportunities to try civil cases in private practice.
I then applied to be a trial attorney at the U.S. Department of Justice. That change brought me from Chicago to Washington, DC, where I became fascinated with politics and public service. I sent a letter stating that I would quit my job to volunteer full-time for the presidential campaign. Very fortuitously, the volunteer coordinator invited me to come to the campaign offices to meet with her. In retrospect, I think that she just wanted to look me in the eye to see if I was serious. This transition was particularly formative because it opened up a whole new trajectory of my career, and it only happened because I was willing to take a risk and be open to new opportunities.
Looking back, this volunteer position contributed immensely to my current role as president of the American Bar Association. After the campaign, I was very fortunate to get a position in the White House to work on policy issues like equal pay for women, domestic violence and sexual assault, homelessness, civil rights issues, Native American issues, and consumer issues. During my White House years, I fed my passion for public service. After the White House, I worked at a Fortune 200 company and then in a gubernatorial administration in Illinois.
While I was working in government in Illinois, I got a call offering me the position of CEO of the Indian Health Service, a $6 billion agency with more than 15,000 employees that provides health care to over 2 million Native Americans around the country. This is probably not the thing to do, but I blurted out, “I’m a lawyer, not a doctor,” but they still said that they wanted me to lead the Indian Health Service. I really had to think if I was the right person for it. But I did think that as a lawyer I could contribute.
How do we harness this moment to effectively support what is actually an increasingly diverse applicant pool for law schools, ensuring that our efforts to promote diversity are both impactful and comply with the law?
Mary Smith, American Bar Association president
Part of the reason I took that role was to honor my Native American heritage, especially my grandmother. She grew up in a family of 16 children, only 10 of whom lived above the age of three due to a lack of adequate access to health care. In that role, my legal background came in handy, and I learned to rely on medical professionals for the aspects of the job that required medical training. While in that role, I learned that the training you receive as a lawyer can be applied to several different areas. Now, my experiences in the White House and at the Indian Health Service both contribute to my perspective as president of the American Bar Association, all of which comes out of my passion for public service. That is the exact reason I joined the ABA in the first place—to be part of something bigger than myself.
Wilkins: One of the things that you mentioned draws on another big theme of the book: opportunity and inequality. In the After the JD study, we were very conscious of trying as best we could to say something about the Native American experience, which typically, as you know, is overlooked. Often in studies, there is a footnote that says there are not enough Native Americans to say anything substantial about that population. We oversampled for minorities on this point, and in particular for Native Americans. But even still, the numbers were small and it was hard for us to say anything specific. You are president of the ABA at a very interesting and challenging time around issues of opportunity, exclusion, diversity, and equity. How are you thinking about both where we are on those issues and where we need to go and how we can get there in this environment?
Smith: I am very passionate about diversity and inclusion, and that is also one of the ABA’s goals. As you’ve mentioned, there has been a lot going on in this space in the past year or more. Following last year’s Supreme Court ruling dismantling affirmative action in higher education, the legal world has witnessed significant repercussions. Some law firms and law schools have been sued, and some others have been the recipients of letters threatening litigation unless they in essence put an end to their DEI programs. In response, some are retreating from their established diversity initiatives, which is a very disconcerting sign in the goal for an inclusive legal profession. The question is, how do we harness this moment to effectively support what is actually an increasingly diverse applicant pool for law schools, ensuring that our efforts to promote diversity are both impactful and comply with the law?
Some people think of lawyers as people who manage risk—and we certainly do that. But I personally think that sells us short. As lawyers, we are problem solvers.
Mary Smith
Following the first of these lawsuits, I issued a statement on behalf of the American Bar Association emphasizing that despite these challenges, our dedication to diversity, equity, and inclusion remains unwavering. Goal III of the ABA’s mission explicitly commits to eliminating bias and enhancing diversity within both the ABA and the legal profession at large. This commitment is a cornerstone of our profession’s integrity and effectiveness. It’s imperative to recognize that our pursuit of diversity is about laying a foundation to make clear that equal opportunity must truly be available to all. I believe the very legitimacy of our profession depends on that because law touches everything in our society and we reflect and serve the diverse fabric of that society.
Some people think of lawyers as people who manage risk—and we certainly do that. But I personally think that sells us short. As lawyers, we are problem solvers. In this new era, the American Bar Association stands firm in our dedication to diversity, equity, and inclusion. I challenge lawyers to be creative, to think about ways to achieve that goal of equal opportunity for all following the Supreme Court’s decision. Inside the ABA, we’ve had a working group focused on threats to DEI, and we adopted a resolution earlier this year based on a report by the New York State Bar Association that addresses a lot of these issues. And we’re currently working on a toolkit that will be a resource for both law firms and in-house legal departments.
Wilkins: I appreciate your attention to these issues in these challenging times, but that’s not the only challenge that has happened on your very eventful presidential watch. Over the last year, we’ve watched the stunning rise of AI. You’re in a very unique position to think about this because you used to oversee, as you mentioned, an enormous health care delivery system where issues around technology were already transforming the landscape of professional practice. From that lens, how are you thinking about what the challenge of AI and other forms of technology are for the legal profession? And again, as president of the ABA, how are you thinking about the profession responding?
Smith: It’s definitely going to impact the legal profession in both small and profound ways. I’ll start by telling a story. Last year I had the pleasure of meeting with several international bar leaders, and we were discussing the development of AI. One leader from Mexico told me that when he gives his associates a research assignment that once would’ve taken several days—or at least several hours—it can now take a matter of minutes through the use of AI. While he is happy that he receives the work quickly, he worries that the results might not be accurate. That can be checked, of course.
At a minimum, lawyers will be required to understand how AI works, how it is developed and used, what advantages it can bring, the risks it can create, and the legal and ethical issues that arise.
Mary Smith
He was also—and mostly—concerned that the next generation of lawyers are not learning how to be lawyers. They’re not learning the skills they need to navigate the legal profession.
AI has the potential to improve many aspects of legal practice. Lawyers in many practice settings are looking for ways to harness the benefits of AI, boost productivity, and increase access to justice. We’ve already seen law firms and in-house counsel begin implementing AI to draft contracts, conduct research, and formulate arguments. AI can also open up new career trajectories and free lawyers to perform more sophisticated tasks. One of the most exciting applications of AI is to tackle access issues and the justice gap. And we see law schools grappling with it as well, with some law schools permitting the use of AI in admission applications and exams, while others are setting boundaries for prohibiting its use.
At a minimum, lawyers will be required to understand how AI works, how it is developed and used, what advantages it can bring, the risks it can create, and the legal and ethical issues that arise. To address all of this, I created a Task Force on Law and Artificial Intelligence, which is taking a comprehensive look at the use of AI and making recommendations on the impact to the practice of law. They’re looking at several areas including law and regulation, the practice of law, and access to justice. It’s hard to have a crystal ball, and I know some fear that AI will replace lawyers altogether, but I think that’s probably an overreaction. One of the key aspects of being a lawyer is the humanity we bring to our matters and our clients and the empathy and compassion we have. In a recent ABA Journal column, I wrote that we need not fear a zombie apocalypse on this. I think AI can make us better lawyers. I hope that it can strengthen our profession.
Wilkins: You’ve raised a really critical point about the training and development of new lawyers. You certainly are in a wonderful position to think about where legal education should be going. From that perch, what would you like law schools to be doing more of or differently to prepare young lawyers for the legal practice of tomorrow?
Smith: There are a few things. One, obviously law schools must raise students’ awareness of AI’s capabilities and limitations and how it implicates ethical obligations. Attorneys and legal professionals will need to understand how it works, how it’s developed, and what advantages it can bring—as well as its pitfalls. Law schools play an important role in this process.
They must not only instill traditional lawyering skills such as problem-solving and judgment, but they also need to acknowledge and support the reality that lawyers of the future will need to incorporate AI tools into legal service delivery. And they’re going to have to integrate training on the effective use of technology tools into their curriculum.
Law, like most professions, is built on relationships—with your law partners, with your clients—and in addition to performing well in whatever your current role is, these skills are so important over the course of your career for networking, developing your client base, and seeking out mentors.
Mary Smith
They also have to strike a balance between ethics and its potential for transformation.
Last week we announced that the ABA Task Force on Law and Artificial Intelligence had just finished its AI and Legal Education Survey, where they gathered insights from law school administrators and faculty regarding the integration of artificial intelligence into legal education. This survey was completed by 29 law school deans or faculty members between December 2023 and mid-February 2024. Overall, the survey suggests that AI is already having a significant impact on legal education and it’s likely to result in additional changes in the years ahead. A majority of those responding are offering dedicated AI courses and providing opportunities for students to engage with AI tools. In fact, 55 percent of the law schools that responded reported that they offer AI classes. An overwhelming majority—83 percent—reported the availability of curricular opportunities, including clinics where students can learn how to use AI tools effectively. A substantial percentage of institutions, 69 percent, have adapted their academic integrity policies in response to generative AI.
I do think that both the legal profession and our world are at an inflection point. Another important area that law schools should focus on is teaching civics. We often think that grade schools and high schools are no longer teaching civics, and it’s increasingly true that some students arrive at law school without being educated about civics and their duties as citizens. As lawyers, we have a special duty to protect democracy. Each of us takes an oath when we become lawyers to uphold the constitution and to protect the rule of law. And in fact, just a couple weeks ago, we unveiled a letter signed by over 100 law school deans to rededicate themselves to trying to instill civics in our law school curriculum. It reaffirmed our commitment to preparing the next generation of legal advocates to uphold democracy in the rule of law and to champion the constitution.
Finally, law schools should teach students interpersonal skills and client management. I don’t know if it’s the nature of education today or the increased use of technology or communication over Zoom, but it seems to me that some law students need coaching on interpersonal skills and developing emotional intelligence. Law, like most professions, is built on relationships—with your law partners, with your clients—and in addition to performing well in whatever your current role is, these skills are so important over the course of your career for networking, developing your client base, and seeking out mentors.
Wilkins: As we close, I’d like you to reflect a little bit on where you see these issues going in the next few years. What are the major trends likely to be moving forward, and how should we be thinking about some of these challenges moving forward?
Smith: There are obviously a lot of challenges. We’ve already discussed artificial intelligence, but of the other challenges I see currently and continuing to be on the horizon, law school debt is a major one. Our Young Lawyers Division conducted a survey that revealed that it is the single most important issue facing law students and young lawyers. It affects what choices they make in their career and what their practice will look like. I’ve been visiting a lot of law schools, and I also see significant mental health challenges facing both law students and practicing lawyers. And finally, a huge issue is how do we address the access to justice gap? The Legal Services Corporation says that 92 percent of low-income people are not able to obtain the civil legal help they need. That is a critical issue facing our profession.
I joined the American Bar Association because I believed in the power of the law to be part of something much larger than myself and to lift my voice in the service of those who have been historically silenced or sidelined.
Mary Smith
I recently had the honor of speaking to the graduates at Seattle University School of Law, and, despite the challenges, I told them that they are entering the legal profession at a very exciting and crucial time. There is no more important time to be a lawyer. The world needs lawyers more than ever to uphold democracy in the face of rising challenges to the rule of law, to champion civil rights in an era of growing social inequality, to navigate the intricacies of international law in a globalized world, and to address the ethical challenges posed by technological innovation to privacy to artificial intelligence. But most importantly, it needs lawyers to give voice to the voiceless.
I joined the American Bar Association because I believed in the power of the law to be part of something much larger than myself and to lift my voice in the service of those who have been historically silenced or sidelined. And I believe the law is a powerful tool for change, and through it, we can contribute to a legacy of justice, equality, and dignity for all.
David B. Wilkins is the faculty director of the Center on the Legal Profession and the Lester Kissel Professor of Law at Harvard Law School.
Mary Smith is the president of the American Bar Association.
